Exploring ‘Energy Supplier of the Future’ with Christina Hepp, sonnen

In this episode, we talk with Christina Hepp, Director of Innovation and Intelligence at sonnen and New Energy Business Models Research Manager, Nigel Timperley. We’re circling back to LCP Delta’s ‘Energy Supplier of the Future’ narrative and exploring sonnen’s journey – and Christina’s own thoughts – in relation to the growing convergence between energy retail and energy management.

Episode transcript

[00:00:04.570] - Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.

 

[00:00:09.370] - Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition. Welcome and hello to a new episode of Talking New Energy. I am having today two guests, Christina Hepp, the director of innovation and intelligence at sonnen, and Nigel Timperley from LCP Delta, who's research manager for new energy business models. And today it's also my first time that I'm moderating that alone because Jon is somewhere hoovering around important meetings and conferences. But I hope we can provide you today anyway with a really insightful and thoughtful conversation and discussion. Today we are having a look at sonnen as its journey that it overtook over the many years and decades already and have a look of Christina's thoughts looking back and looking into the future and getting a bit reflection also from Nigel in terms of what are the developments that we are overall seeing in the industry. Nigel, welcome.

 

[00:01:27.480] - Nigel Timperley

Hello.

 

[00:01:28.380] - Sandra Trittin

And would be great to get a bit of insights from your paper that you wrote with regards to new business models in the energy industry, new players, also evolving in the industry, and what's going on at the moment, right.

 

[00:01:46.900] - Nigel Timperley

Okay, great. Thanks, Sandra. Yeah. What's going on? Well, it's a big question, but essentially, we're going through a series of transitions all at the same time. So we're going through a technology transition as we digitalize, we're going through a change in the obviously climate related green transition. And also, we're going through a customer transition as the customer becomes more demanding, becomes more digital. And also, it's very frightened. The crisis was a very scary experience, and the customer wants more control over their energy bills. We talk a lot about high prices, but there's something different, and that's volatility. Okay. High prices is bad, but volatility is even worse, right? Because that's frightening. I don't know. That's an experience. High prices are bad, but volatility, I feel in my stomach, right. I hate it. It makes it scary. We need to give people control. So, there's all these different transitions, but within that there are lots of opportunities, and what we see is a shift. And the paper that you referred to is about our vision, our vision of the energy supplier of the future. What will energy supply look like in three years’ time? In five years’, time.

 

And our belief, based on our analysis and research, is that traditional energy supply will die. It will be replaced by energy management. The flaw in the old model is this. The old model is confrontational. It's me against you, the customer. I'm the supplier. I win if you use more energy, but you lose. But if you use less energy, you win, and I lose. That confrontation is not suitable for the new world, because in the new world, we need to win together. I need to make the transition and you need to help me. And so that's where we're going. We're going from. Sorry.

 

[00:04:11.060] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, go ahead, Nigel. Sorry.

 

[00:04:12.840] - Nigel Timperley

Well, no, it is. It's a profound change. It's a profound change in the model. But this isn't just PowerPoint tech. We're seeing companies doing this across Europe, and of course, we're going to talk to one of them today.

 

[00:04:27.270] - Sandra Trittin

Exactly. So, thank you for making that transition and welcome again, Christina. And probably just for our listeners, I mean, most of them will know who is sonnen and what you are doing, but probably it would be still good if you could give us like a quick elevator pitch about the company and also about your role and responsibilities at the company.

 

[00:04:49.850] - Christina Hepp

Yeah, I would love to. And thanks for the invite, Sandra, and happy to be here today. So, a bit background on sonnen. So, we were founded in 2010, back then, pioneer in energy storage, so homes were not using battery storage. And we came in and said, this is a useful thing for you. We want to help customers use more of their own PV systems, where we had already seen photovoltaic uptake, and we wanted to help those customers become even more independent of some of those things Nigel already mentioned. We've seen in the past about that changing energy world, the volatility that customers just wanted, a bit more reassurance and a bit more independence. So that's where our battery came into play, and we didn't stay long in that battery space and said, battery alone is not enough. So, from our founders and the vision they had, they do want to take that old energy system and help it transform for the energy transition. So, we very quickly made our batteries smart. So, we added a WiFi online functionality in 2012, which was still quite new back then. And we took a few years to study some of that data.

 

[00:05:54.020] - Christina Hepp

It was nice for the customers because they could see in the app what was happening in their home. Also interesting for us because we looked at what was actually happening and were the batteries always at the same time charging, discharging or not? And we actually saw there was a bit of a balance here and there in our own pool of customers that it balanced out in the end. And we thought, there's potential there, why not use that? And we had always said, and from the customers that came in, there was a strong, we want to do something for the energy transition, and it shouldn't be one against the other, Nigel. So, we've pulled in our sonnenCommunity to show that together we can do a bit more. And we took that concept of balancing one another out and pulled our customers together into a virtual pool. So, we didn't leave it at the single household, but said, let's take this power of the community and do something for the grid. And are now today actively helping to stabilise the grid as it is and helping it transition and be able to cope with the changes that come with the energy transition and the measures that we're doing to help fight climate change.

 

[00:07:01.750] - Sandra Trittin

And that's pretty interesting. Yeah, go ahead.

 

[00:07:05.270] - Christina Hepp

No, just quickly to my own role. So, I've been with sonnen for four and a half years, so quite a long time for sonnen. And I'm responsible for our innovation and intelligence. It's a bit twofold. So on the intelligence side, we observe the market and see what's happening on a trend side, a market sizing competitors or customer needs, how they're changing how they are today, and then using that knowledge then to innovate and think about what does that mean for our own business model and how can we help customers even more on their own journey, and what kind of aspects can we address there?

 

[00:07:42.630] - Sandra Trittin

Which is pretty interesting because building on what Nigel was saying, right, you're already explaining us that son went through that journey from, let's say, a normal manufacturer in getting into the energy retail space as well. But then if you are saying, okay, now you're working on an innovation, what do you see as the next development step? Like what do you see what will happen next? Or what is asked from the customer side?

 

[00:08:14.030] - Christina Hepp

Yeah. So, we see some challenges coming, of course, if we have more renewables in the grid, that there is volatility that increases because energy sources are not always available constantly, and that there is a bigger need for flexibility. And where often a lot of the literature or the public discourse is quite negative about electric vehicles or heat pumps being installed, about their strain on the grid, we actually see quite a big potential there. So not only for our own customers to help them transition and really decarbonise their homes by helping them instal these technologies, by also leveraging the power of these technologies, because although they consume energy, they are quite a big flexibility source, that if we shift the times they're using energy we can actually help these assets integrate and to not have them be a problem on the grid. So, we see quite a big potential there to expand also our own virtual power plants and increase the power we do have behind the sonnenCommunity.

 

[00:09:15.730] - Sandra Trittin

And, Nigel, how do you see would, if you, if you're thinking about what are the important elements of the energy supplier or retailer of the future, right, what are the elements there?

 

[00:09:31.030] - Nigel Timperley

Well, Christina sort of name checked quite a few of them right there. We talk a lot at Delta about a customer journey of engagement, empowerment, and collaboration. And I think in sonnen's journey you can actually see all of those sonnen's customers are quite engaged anyway, otherwise they wouldn't be sonnen's customers. So that's something, an advantage they've had. The rest of the market has now got the same advantage because one of the good things about the crisis is it's engaged people with energy. Now everybody is thinking about energy. Five years ago, they didn't care, now they care. But then it's about empowering customers and collaborating with them to co-create the green energy future in terms of the key components? Well, it's really interesting, of course, that sonnen comes from a manufacturer background, but effectively morphed into this energy manager type of supplier. So, it doesn't follow that suppliers will win, or manufacturers will win. The field is open and there are lots of people who could play there. The bankers could play there because they could finance this. Green finance is going to be a big part of this. And digital to make sense of it.

 

Digital is the glue that pulls it together and presents it to the customer in a way the customer understands. I just wondered if I could ask you a question directly, Christina, around finance, because what you've described sounds really great, but it sounds really expensive from a customer. Point of customer, do you get involved with green finance or are you aiming at a niche, very affluent market who doesn't have to worry with finance because they just pay cash?

 

[00:11:29.210] - Christina Hepp

Yes, good question. It is a big hurdle for many households. So, what we do at least see with the solutions we have in the market, we want to help customers on the cost side as well. So, yes, it is a big upfront investment they're making, but over the lifetime, we help them reduce some of those running costs or manage those costs better. So, we also have arson and flat, which is our electricity contract that we provide to customers to give them a zero-bill energy contract over the year, balanced out with the community to have them better manage their own costs. And if they are, then in the virtual power plant, which they are when they have the sonnen flat, we also give them a financial benefit for participating. So, we do see on the upfront investment cost side that over the lifetime we are comparable to other competitors, and we help them get more out of what they've invested in. We did have a financing proposition already in Germany, so we had now that we introduced 2019, which is exactly that, where they didn't pay upfront, but instead were financing their own system, kind of like Enpal in the market, where they paid a monthly fee and then they got PV battery from us, it was more difficult to bring into the market and we did, with the boom last year, push this back a little bit, but there are options we are re exploring now because our vision is not just those affluent households, but we do want to help everyone on their own journey.

 

[00:12:57.380] - Christina Hepp

So, it is an option we're now re exploring. What can we do to help that even more?

 

[00:13:02.990] - Nigel Timperley

Yeah.

 

[00:13:06.890] - Sandra Trittin

If I listen to you both, right, it sounds really exciting and a lot is going on and I hear financing and virtual power plants and communities and balancing, et cetera, et cetera. I can imagine that getting this kind of information on the customer side is not always easy, right? Because if we want to explain that to our grandmas or aunts or uncles or someone, I mean, if you come around with a virtual power plant, they look at you with big question marks. So how do you see that, Christina? Like, how is sonnen trying to solve that? Let's say, communication and value proposition transfer challenge, let's say.

 

[00:13:51.530] - Christina Hepp

Yeah, also a good question. As you said yourself, a virtual power plant as such, no one's going to know, what is that for me? So, we focus more on communicating the benefits behind that. So when we've even talked to our customers who are in the virtual power plan and Ask them, why did you actually join? And no surprise, financial benefits and the financial earnings or rewards they got back was one of the main drivers, but also the factor that they're helping to stabilise the grid. So, this one is a bit more difficult to communicate. But we have done a good job in terms of combining the community into that, because I think being a part of something, doing something together, is something you're able to better align with or relate with in comparison to. Here's a net grid stabilisation measure. So, in terms of really the story we pulled up around the virtual power plant is what I think made that proposition easier to understand. And to say, that's quite a cool thing. I want to join. And I think in the future, there is still, or even now, a lot to do to make a lot of these propositions that are out there in the market.

 

And there should be many different players offering these propositions. Really easy and to understand one, and also easy to participate in.

 

[00:15:10.370] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah. And how do you see it, Nigel? I mean, if I look at the different elements that you are describing in your research, how do you see the role of communication or of translating, let's say, the energy talk to something tangible to the consumer?

 

[00:15:31.010] - Nigel Timperley

Yeah, it's a great question because as an industry, we've been terrible at that historically. And, of course, because we're a commodity, that sort of suggests they're all the same, right. And this is not the same. This is so different. So what do we lead with? How do we even open that conversation up? I think Christina's right. We start with the benefits, and there are clear benefits, and the benefits are about cost, about going green, which is a secular trend. All of our research shows it's not a cyclical trend, it's a secular trend, and we believe an unstoppable one. But also, this thing about control, it's something that we underestimate a lot in our industry. Our whole history is about. We've always had insurance in energy, right? Boiler insurance, heat pump insurance. These have Been there for decades. Customers want to feel control. Well, this is a form of control. It's given me control over volatility. Call it insurance if you like. So, it's about selling an experience of a green future, but also a son. And flat. Okay, I've nailed this to the ground. I'm in control of this. It's flat. Flat is good. Flat is a really great story, because I can stand on that.

 

It's not going to bubble about. It's flat. So, I think those are all key messages. I would add on one more thing, if I may. They're all part of the upfront marketing. But there's also, once I'm a customer, and I'll be interested to hear what Christina's response to this is once I'm a customer. This could get quite complicated. Okay, I've got solar, maybe I've got a battery, maybe I've got an EV. There's lots of different moving parts. There's a clever flat tariff, and I'm trading with my community. Although I may understand it, what I want to know is, what can I do? What should I do right now to get the best deal? What levers can I pull today to make it better? And that's to me and to us, where the digital comes in and the front end. Give me a simple conversation that I can understand. Don't dazzle me with tech. I'm impressed with your tech. It must be clever. I don't understand it, so it must be clever, right. But the trouble is it can be too clever. So, we need to get that digital front end right once I am a customer, as well as selling the benefits before I join.

 

Yeah. So, I don't know what your view is, Christina, in terms of how sonnen have worked on that digital piece or know giving the customer that simple set of choices and understanding of how to operate this thing.

 

[00:18:30.930] - Christina Hepp

Yeah, I think that's a great point, and I would agree. I think it's not just about the run up to the decision itself on having a great promise and a great idea of how is this going to help me and how will this benefit me. But then seeing as I use this device or this contract that I've just bought, how is it actually helping? So, we do have our app that customers use Once they've installed the system where they can see how much electricity is left on their sonnen flat because they do get a free allowance and they can see throughout the year how much have I used? Where am I? We also show them when a virtual power plant itself is active so that they know the battery is doing something odd. Maybe the sun is shining, but it's actually discharging to help educate them on that front. And we do see a very high level of engagement with our customers where they're going in multiple times a day to cheque the app and see what's happening with their system. And I think it is a very nice thing to see. Hey, I'm producing my own energy here.

 

It's being stored. I don't need it right away. And in the evening when I come home from work, I can use it. So, this is quite an engagement factor. And I think from the control you mentioned there, more on the transparency, I think is super important to show customers. We didn't just promise you something, but it's actually happening in reality. And here are the clear benefits of the system you have installed.

 

[00:19:52.110] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, and probably, Nigel, adding also on that part of the digitalisation, right. What we see in general in the market are, let's say, two main plays to manage this kind of integration and control issue, where you have one set of solution, let's say, like sonnen is doing, you have, let's say, a full package where you get an inverter and you get a storage and you get a heat pump and charger and everything is integrated within one app and you can have all the data in one point, let's say, which makes your life easier. And then the second game is that you have just technology providers who are offering, let's say, home energy management (HEM) systems or integration levels, either software or hardware based, and they take it, let's say, step-by-step, right? They take one manufacturer after the other. I think there is no right or wrong. It's just like how much work it is and how big might be your customer.

 

[00:20:58.850] - Nigel Timperley

Yes, yes. Clearly, what sonnen are doing is the more advanced model whole, the whole show. But I think you're right, Sandra. What we're seeing is, as an industry, people are trying to work out, do we sell this complete package, or do we layer different solutions on over time? When we first started, I'm saying we, meaning the energy industry here. So, showing my background. But when we first started with packages, there was this flood of tariffs plus smart thermostat or tariffs plus something else, right? And you'd get a package, and you'd buy it together. Now, that whole idea, I think, is changing right? Now. You will get a tariff that's capable. You maybe get a tariff with a smart metre, and then because you've got a smart metre, maybe you'll get a time of use tariff. And then because you got a time of use tariff. Hey ho. You can do something clever with that EV that your employer has given you. And now I've got that, we find a lot of new EV drivers start thinking about solar. So, a bit later, they get solar, so you get this journey they go on, where they come into the new energy world and the customer reframes themselves.

 

As a new energy believer, and I use the word advisedly, I think there is an element of belief of signing on to this world, and that's quite controversial, right. We started off on the fringe, it was all niches, but now this stuff makes people fight. Those are outside get quite annoyed about it, and those on the inside can be quite zealous. But we've got to offer. What that really means is different people are at different stages on their journey and we've got to offer flexible solutions that allow them to come in over time. Something like sonnen, on the face of it, is like an end game. But, I mean, I don't know. Presumably, Christina, you can just buy bits of this thing, right, and you can add them over time. And that is how I see it. I don't know if you want to comment on that, Christina, but that's how we tend to see packages being developed over time now rather than sold in one chunk. That's basically the point.

 

[00:23:22.690] - Christina Hepp

Yeah, I love that analogy. I think the journey aspect is quite important because, yeah, there's a general consensus on the motivation behind joining, but everybody's at a different stage when they come in or they start with mobility and then move on from there. And we at sonnen are also shifting. I mean, we've had our sonnen flat. You can also have a sonnen home contract from us. So, customers who have just an electricity contract if they know the brand and they want to also sign up to the story and what we've done most recently when our team was looking at the heating side. So, a very huge sector that still needs to be decarbonized, thinking about how can we integrate that to the sonnenCommunity. We've come to realise quickly that this whole package of everyone buys everything at once. It would be nice, but it's quite a high upfront cost and quite difficult that there will be people who come in from the heat pump side and then choose to add PV and battery later, or they're coming from the sonnen side with PV battery and want to add that heat pump. So, we said we want to figure that out and we collaborated with two heat pump OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturer).

 

So NIBE and Viessmann and we're integrating their systems into our energy management. And you don't need to instal any hardware there, it's just software that once both systems are installed, they find each other in the local network and then they're connected, and those assets can then benefit from the sonnen story as well. So, we ourselves are also shifting from that. And I think personally it's nice to see players in the industry collaborating on this instead of everyone trying to build their own system up and that we're opening ourselves there and saying, hey, let's do this together and bring these sectors closer so that that entry point doesn't have to be the full package.

 

[00:25:11.650] - Sandra Trittin

But then how would you see then the future of the general market? Because if you're saying there are, let's say, groups of companies building up, we might end up with five to ten, let's say full integrated solutions, or would there be still room for also fragmented offerings or how would you both see it?

 

[00:25:40.650] - Christina Hepp

Happy to answer first, Nigel, and then you can add on. So, I think it definitely won't be a group of companies just owning that space I'd like to think we also are a bit of a pioneer again at this stage. So, we started with battery only, then we did our virtual power plant, and now this integration of really bringing. We already have our EV charger and now bringing in also the heat pump side that we're just starting because there is no way, there is no easy option today to integrate these assets. So, we've started with these two companies, but our goal is to have a wide ray of manufacturers within that. And we are looking at standards. I think this would maybe also be a question I would have for Nigel. Do you see any standard in the market for communication that is emerging, or you think you would bet on? I think the industry is not yet aligned on this one, but we are also exploring them so that in the future, it won't be these group of companies who've made the solutions or made the connexion to one another, but rather more easy to put the puzzle together.

 

[00:26:43.010] - Nigel Timperley

Well, yeah, I think I'd agree with that. We see interoperability as a really vital issue as we move towards a more open market. I think the idea of markets tend to grow from closed to open over time. And I think we'll see something similar. Possibly matter is the promising protocol for smart home products. I'm not a technician. My colleagues in home energy management at LCP Delta are. But that seems a promising attempt, as good as we've seen so far. In any event, there will be closer integration. It's just a case of how it happens for contrast. Okay, I've got an EV with an EV app. I've got solar with a solar app. I've got a heating system with a smart thermostat. I've got an app for my supply. I have one banking app that does everything right. Why have I got four or five different energy apps? Clearly, this is nuts, because I'm one customer, and that's what will happen as we get more deeply integrated. It's just a case of how long it takes and how hard it is to get. But as I said, we are seeing these moves, and Christina is talking about partnership.

 

That's the first step towards interoperability. But you have to be extremely powerful in an industry to really go with closed protocols. And I don't think we're seeing that. There is no Apple in our industry. There's nobody on that scale who owns the market. We're not even sure who will become that energy manager of the future. Will it be suppliers? Will it become manufacturers like sonnen that morph into it? As I said before in practise, it's more likely to be these partnerships, and that's the way we see the.

 

[00:28:48.790] - Sandra Trittin

So probably to add on this as well. I just recently published also a blog with regards to standardisation and as an add on. What we see, interestingly, is the later the technology kicked off in the energy industry, the more standardised it is. So have a look at the chargepoints. Who are all talking through OCPP, or most of them, let's say. So, it's more or less a standard protocol, whereas if you look at most of the inverter manufacturer, they all have their own individualised APIs or modboards, interfaces, et cetera. But fully agree with both of you. First of all, it can only work with a partnership approach. And the second thing might be that it's more a matter of development. And until then, we have to face the challenge and work us through that. Right, for the integration, then normally what we do then with regards, like at the end of the podcast, is we have our crystal ball question, right. And so just have a thought. You are now in 2028, which is not too far out. How would you see the market evolve? Probably first for Nigel. Do you think these kind of fully integrated energy management solutions will be a niche or will be broadly spread across all customer segments?

 

[00:30:32.330] - Nigel Timperley

I'm really bullish, actually. I think we're seeing alignment of the planets, as it were. A lot of things come together and line up quite nicely and things we hadn't even expected, like AI, that will help with the front end. So, yes, I'm very bullish. I think we will see. We've just put together a tariff database of 400 different smart tariffs across Europe. I'm not talking about something that's tomorrow. I'm talking about something it's today. Okay. We've got loads of evidence that shows that the market is getting smarter, and the digital glue is available through smart metres and apps and AI. The banks have made their moves. They made some extraordinary commitments. We've had a couple of podcasts on green finance. We're now at the tipping point in terms of solar and EVs in particular. I believe EVs are the killer app. So, we've got these extraordinary drivers. Plus, policy is a tailwind. So, yeah, I think companies that take that customer-centric energy management view, whether that's coming at it from a storage perspective, like somebody like sonnen or a pass-through product, but like an honest broker, like Tibber, somebody like that, it's a pass-through product.

 

They're not making any money out of supplying power; they make money of helping me get better with my energy use. So, they're an energy manager. So, yes, very bullish. That's the clear direction of travel. And if you said three years, I might have been scratching my head, but with five years, I'm feeling very confident that we've got a bit of a runaway train on our hands. So, yes, that's my prediction.

 

[00:32:24.590] - Sandra Trittin

So then, Christina, how big is your market share going to be? No numbers requested, but how do you see it? Right, how will also probably the competitive landscape evolve? Do you see more companies coming up? Will more customers ask for these kind of solutions? What is your point of view?

 

[00:32:47.830] - Christina Hepp

Yeah, I would agree with, or also be bullish like Nigel. I think by that time we will see that homes are a vital component of the energy system. And we do firmly believe that there won't just be singular assets in homes that are just having one function, like to be driven or to heat the home, but that they'll have a secondary function or even more as well. So that we just see more and more intelligence in the home and the use of these assets not only for that singular home, but also having a functionality in the energy grids. If we do want to reach a lot of those renewable targets, we need solutions that help the system counteract the volatility and the problems that do come with it and want that grid to be future proof itself. And I think from the player landscape itself, I don't expect a consolidation until then. I think there is still a lot of room to innovate and a lot of room for propositions for further customer segments to also engage those that today may be a bit more laggard or don't know yet that they also can play an active part.

 

[00:33:52.430] - Christina Hepp

So, I think there is a lot of potential for us to grow and I think we will grow, but I also think there's a lot of room for further propositions. And I think that's what the market needs. As we talked about journeys, they're also unique. There will not be a cookie cutter version that will work for everybody, but we need a lot of solutions to help us achieve the energy transition we're hoping to achieve.

 

[00:34:17.010] - Sandra Trittin

And I think also building on what you're both saying, what you can see if you are taking a step back on one side, it's what the consumer is asking for, right? Because otherwise it's getting too difficult with all the different suppliers and how to bring that together in a home and how to integrate and how to have just one app instead of five apps on the phone to have control. Right, Nigel, what you were mentioning. And then on the other side, that it's also, I think, crucial for building up sustainable business models also from a company perspective. Right. Because selling hardware gives you a one-time revenue, selling kilowatt hours gives you recurring revenue. But on a smaller level, let's say, and the combination of both, right, then also including virtual power plant services, grid stabilisation, et cetera, can give a quite nice combination to hopefully build up a really sustainable business, which I think sonnen is already proving that it's really working. Is there, as a last summary, is there in one sentence something that stood out for you from our discussion or surprised you or that you might want to add as your last quote to all our listeners?

 

Christina, you want to start.

 

[00:35:45.410] - Christina Hepp

Sure. So, I think what I would take away is that the parameters that we need, and the technical solutions are there. We just need to make sure that we can bring these different parameters together in a way that makes sense for consumers so that really more do join that transition. I do firmly believe that we will get there and have that growth there. But those propositions behind, to really make them easy, easy to understand, easy to adapt in their own journey is crucial.

 

[00:36:15.130] - Nigel Timperley

Yeah. I'd agree with Christina's point about integration, effective integration. But the one I would add, it's interesting hearing your experiences, Christina. The one I would add is we've become this schizophrenic. You know, energy is traditionally a defensive play. When the market was down, you bought utilities, nice, boring stocks that generated a steady income. Now we're talking to a company like sonnen that's doing something nuts, really crazy stuff with tech and bringing it all together and making it sing. Right. So, we have this twin track market. I would challenge people listening to this to act a bit more like a growth stock and a bit less like a value stock because we spend too much time saying, where are the immediate. In the, in the incumbent world, saying, where are the immediate revenues from this? And that's not what this is. This is much more like growth. The revenues are five years away once we've made this thing sing. But we've got to get the integration right first. But my, there's a big prize at the end of it. There's so much value to be had if we can deeply integrate these tools. But we're actually a growth industry, not a value industry, and a lot of people have got that wrong.

 

So, it's really exciting to talk to you, Christina.

 

[00:37:35.600] - Christina Hepp

And if I may add something, if you had asked five years ago, any grid operator, what do you need from us? No one would have said, please aggregate tiny, distributed batteries together and provide grid services for us. So, it is about taking that risk and saying, I see the value and not just trying to please the current value. And I think that's what we always believed. Don't wait for it to happen, do it and see the possibilities. And I would say, everybody, please take those possibilities and create those propositions.

 

[00:38:06.960] - Nigel Timperley

Yeah, agreed.

 

[00:38:07.970] - Sandra Trittin

Okay, so it's all about execution and to make it happen, right? And bring us all one step forward. So, then I would like to thank you very much for that exciting and interesting discussion, for the insights that you both gave on the more, let's say, theoretical side and on the practical approach in the market. And looking forward to talk to you next time. And thank you to all our listeners and looking forward to our next session talking new energy together with Jon again. Bye.

 

[00:38:43.130] - Christina Hepp

Thank you.

 

[00:38:44.390] - Sandra Trittin

Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transition. If you've got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know.

 

[00:38:56.330] - Jon Slowe

And if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts, and more, please visit lcpdelta.com.