Exploring hydrogen for heat trials with Vaillant

[00:00:04.640] - Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.

[00:00:09.300] - Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition.

[00:00:19.870] - Jon Slowe

Hello and welcome to the episode. Hi, Sandra.

[00:00:24.750] - Sandra Trittin

Hi, Jon. How are you doing?

[00:00:26.760] - Jon Slowe

I'm good. So, Sandra, today we're going to be looking at hydrogen and the potentially controversial topic of hydrogen for heating. But we're going to try not to get drawn into the big debate about how much of a role hydrogen will have in the heating transition but zoom in on one aspect of it.

[00:00:47.780] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah. And that will be especially exciting with the company we will have today as a guest.

[00:00:53.540] - Jon Slowe

So, let's say hello to our guests, Swen Engelhaupt, who's Director of Group Market Quality at Vaillant. Hello, Swen.

[00:01:01.010] - Swen Engelhaupt

Hello. The best, all the best from Germany.

[00:01:04.980] - Jon Slowe

Welcome. And our second guest is Zoltan Karpathy, who's heat expert at LCP Delta. Hello, Zoltan.

[00:01:13.440] - Zoltan Karpathy

Hello. Hi Jon. Hi, Sandra. Hi, Swen.

[00:01:16.980] - Jon Slowe

Hello, Swen. Many of our listeners have probably heard of Vaillant, one of Europe's top heating appliance manufacturers. I guess historically Vaillant's been known as a boiler manufacturer, but now Vaillant is probably. That would probably be an unfair characterisation of Vaillant. Is that fair to say? And how broadly has Vaillant diversified from boilers into heat pumps and other appliances?

[00:01:48.830] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yeah, that's true. It's not simply that we only produce gas boilers because we are growing up with that, that's for sure, since decades. But since 2000 we are also developing and selling heat pumps as one of the first ones from the German ones in the market, starting with, with this ground source heat pumps and water to water and later on the air water heat pumps. So, this is quite a significant business for us also in the last year or so. And we meanwhile number four in the heat pump business as we are still number one in the boiler business. So, that's characteristic and it's simply the character of the Vaillant Group depends also accessories and storages and other electrical appliances which we are also offering.

[00:02:45.450] - Jon Slowe

So, you'll grow as a heat pump markets grow, Vaillant is growing quite nicely with that growth in heat pumps while still obviously selling a lot of boilers today.

[00:02:54.490] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yeah, right.

[00:02:58.650] - Jon Slowe

And hydrogen, so, the future for hydrogen isn't clear when it comes to heating. How involved as a group is Vaillant in hydrogen and are you, are you pushing it and really promoting it or are you making sure you're in the game? So, as and when and if hydrogen develops significantly for heating, you're ready. How would you characterise your approach?

[00:03:26.850] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yeah, the approach is made a second one, what you told. So, we are, we are... We will be in the game to see what's going on because it's absolutely right what you said, it's not quite sure in which size and when a hydrogen business may come that's not only relevant for Germany, also for UK. So, we are in close contact with the UK governmental organisations, with the German organisations, also governmental as also the grid operators. And here, we are part of a subsidised big project of hydrogen from the German government. It's called TransHyDE for safe infrastructure. And this is our reason to be partner of that project from a government to see and show what are the hurdles, what are the challenges to bring hydrogen in the heat market. So, that's more or less the approach. So, we will be in the game, but we don't push that actively on medias or things like that.

[00:04:32.800] - Sandra Trittin

And based on what you're saying, Swen, what would you think are the main drivers now pushing that hydrogen topic in generally forward?

[00:04:43.310] - Swen Engelhaupt

The main drivers are the grid operators and because here the targets of Klima neutralisation is the key and here we see a big opportunity in the direction of industry, mainly because in Germany, I can only speak for Germany here in Germany, the industry needs hydrogen as the part to be achieving their goals. So, that's the main part. And as the industry is also part of the distribution network, there is only the chance to get H2 via the existing distribution network to the industry and therefore also some households will take part of that. So, that's the aim, what's going on and where it is pushed. So, the industry needs clear advices by the government and also clear future proof solutions to work with and to invest and to take decisions. And that's the push of the of the hydrogen infrastructure topic, whereby yesterday it's quite new... The backbone of H2 is approved by the German government yesterday. So, the building of the backbone is approved now in Germany and now the grid operators, the big ones and the smaller ones, starting to invest in this change.

[00:06:12.990] - Jon Slowe

Swen, for listeners that aren't aware of the backbone, that's a transmission sort of network down the length of Germany or give us a bit more colour on that backbone.

[00:06:25.330] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yeah, so the backbone is these big pipelines which are going across Germany from north to the south, from east to the west and going to the big industry areas like not North Rhine-Westphalia around Stuttgart, Bavaria and Hamburg. So, these big cities, where the big and heavy industries are located in Germany, they will be connected by the backbone and therefore it is quite essential where the H2 will come from because we will not produce in Germany the H2 by our own for 100%. So, we are, we will importing that. And this will come via Denmark, UK, Scotland, Finland, from the north side. And the other two pipelines will come from the south, from Spain and Portugal, via France to Germany. And the other one will come from the area of Morocco, Tunisia, via Italy and Austria. So, these are at least the four pipelines which will be connected to Germany. And here's the plan to do that in 2030, as with significant amounts of green H2.

[00:07:37.940] - Jon Slowe

So, I think the case of industry, as you say Swen, that's sort of the, the driving case for homes. There's a question of if hydrogen distribution networks are built, then will homes connect to that? Zoltan, maybe you could give us a picture across Europe of hydrogen trials for heating. Are they widespread? Are they just one or two? Can you help our listeners understand how much momentum there is or activity these types of trials?

[00:08:11.600] - Zoltan Karpathy

Yeah, certainly. So, the picture is qquite varied. There are various trials, sometimes only using only one dwelling, sometimes using just one heat generator. Sometimes there are larger projects, certainly there are quite a few live hydrogen for heat residential trial projects which are involving less than 50 dwellings using pure hydrogen. So, most of it are happening in Netherlands. For example, the Wagenborgen trial is looking at retrofittinghydrogen hybrid heat pumps running on 100% green hydrogen in 33 houses. All these houses were built in the 1970s. And another trial takes place in Lochem where in 14 historic homes which are over 100 years old, they have been retrofitted hydrogen combi-boilers. So, both of these trials are currently underway. And that leads me to mention the third trial where Vaillant and Swen is involved in the Hohenwart trial in Germany, which involves not only 10 detached single-family homes, but also an office building of a small commercial enterprise. And of course, looking forward, there are a couple of other trials which are currently in preparation phase or about to start. The H100 in UK is one of them and also the Haringvlietin Netherlands there are larger scale trials where over 100 homes will be part of a trial. So, in the UK case there will be 300 homes and with the Dutch trial will be around 200 homes.

[00:10:14.520] - Sandra Trittin

So, a lot is going on. But then Swen, what makes you choosing these specific projects to join, and probably could you give us a bit of background or especially on that Hohenwart project, because it sounds quite interesting also for the listeners to get to know a bit more of the details around it.

[00:10:35.890] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yes, for sure. I tried to give you some overview. So, first of all, how we joined the project. It is like I said in the introduction, we are part of this trans high safe infrastructure project which is subsidised. And here in this project it is at least the last topic to show that everything what is checked is working well. So, in this project we already checked from steel, from piping, from storaging, from measurement equipment, over to transporting at least safe and also to burning hydrogen. In this project we are, let me say the partner. And the end part was then to find a location where it is feasible to show off what is what is checked. Yeah, beforehand. And that was the reason when we come in with the partners of Thuga, ESB and ENB, which are the energy providers there. And so, we stepped in in the project and we delivered at least the products for these 11 areas, or 11 households, where 10 are, as Zoltan said, 10 are normal customer homes and one is a commercial one. And yeah, that's, that's how we did. And so, we at least planned roughly one year we spent with planning and contracts and all that kind of stuff and getting approvals and so on.

[00:12:10.270] - Swen Engelhaupt

So, it was quite a heavy, long time in the preparation. And the most important thing was really to have the customers at our side. So, we start very early to speak with the customers, with the mayor of the region and also with the governmental organisations to get here the right setup and approvals and commitment. At the end of the day of this trial, what we did after, as I said, this one year of preparation, we then started in September last year to build up that area for one week. So, at least we connected this existing gas grid, natural gas grid with hydrogen by an area where trailers are located. And these trailers are feeding in the 100% hydrogen in the natural gas existing natural gas grid. And so, we cut this existing grid on two areas because it was a ring. And then the rest of the area will still get natural gas and these 11 households getting then 100% hydrogen. So, and that was the first step. And after doing that, and yeah, cleaning up this natural gas grid with nitrogen in addition by once, then we start to connect the households and start to connect is simply quite easy then we exchange the boiler in the house against the existing systems and we adapted the hydraulics because it was not always violent in there was always different manufacturers in and different hydraulics. So, at least you need to fit that in.

[00:14:10.050] - Swen Engelhaupt

The only thing which we did not really touch it was the gas piping. Because the gas piping is usually not in the hydraulics included. It's just feeding it in the boiler so you can directly use it. And yeah, we adapted then the hydraulics, the boiler and the flue system. This we did always on one day for free houses. So, that means 11 houses. We used at least four days to fit all these houses with installers, plumbers together. For sure, we did it not by our own, we did it with partner plumbers. And here they did at least three to four houses per day. And then at the end of the day we really switched on hydrogen on that houses and the customer was then able to operate his heating system again. So, that was the aim really to cut or to stop in the morning and to deliver in the evening where and this is important not the boiler is the relevant time consumer in exchange, but the hydraulic, the adoption of the existing hydraulics to bring everything together that it works well as it was before. And that makes a little bit. Yeah, also the effort for all of us. Yeah...

[00:15:32.440] - Sandra Trittin

And yeah, but this sounds really a lot of work, I have to say. And what I found interesting; how did you convince the customer? Was it difficult to convince the homeowners about joining?

[00:15:47.280] - Swen Engelhaupt

No, at least not because they were proud to be part of an energy transition project. Yeah. And which showed off that it is quite easy possible to transfer from natural gas to hydrogen. And they really like the story. And yeah, and the people were really in favour of and as soon as that becomes clear that it will be reality, that project, a lot of other people ask if they also can participate out of the region. So, the interest was quite high to have other people also in. So, therefore we had a very good setup and also the support of the people was. I was personally there. It was incredible because the people gave us coffee and they take care for everybody who is working there the whole week. So, they prepared some meals and whatever. So, they were really, really interactive with us and helped us to make that... That project successful.

[00:16:55.140] - Jon Slowe

Swen, you talked about the hydraulics being probably the biggest part of the work. If you did a before and after photo of the house, or the part of the house where the boiler and the hydronics are. I don't know if they had basements, as is typical in a lot of German houses. What would you see is different or would it look identical just with a different white box and different hydraulics exactly that.

[00:17:23.190] - Swen Engelhaupt

That's exactly the aim. You exchange at least the boiler, and it looks identically because. Yes, they are mostly they are in the basement. Yeah, there's just one house where it is on the. On the entrance area in a small room, but the rest is in the basement, and it looks identical. Yeah, the... Let me say if you don't build up from one manufacturer system, when you build up the house, then for sure, if you change later to another, then you have to adapt a lot of things in the hydraulics, the sensors and the connections. And this is typically if you exchange a heating system then. And that's at the end of the day, you have to make sure that everything works, even if it is not from one or another manufacturer. And that's the, let me say the most interesting part then.

[00:18:14.370] - Sandra Trittin

And are there any specific learnings that you would already draw from it?

[00:18:20.170] - Swen Engelhaupt

Specific learnings are... Yes, it's from our point of view, the first field test with odourisation. So, before it was only laboratory case and things like that. And we never did odourisation of H2 and in this case we had to do because it's a real use for customer and they have also to be the chance to smell the gas as they are familiar with and that was the challenging thing because for such a small gas grid, it's not easy to have an odourisation system which is working well. And this took us really a bit of testing and adapting to have then the right volumes of iteration in the right areas by measurements and controlling. And that's a key learning at least that we have to take care really for the automation system of small systems. And for sure what is the key learning? It is that we need really to adapt the regulations and the standards because that was the biggest hurdle which we had to approve everything. So, we need at least for every step we need an external expert from an institute which give a sign that everything is well and safe. So, and that's not necessarily you have to do that if you have the standards and everything in place.

[00:19:42.020] - Swen Engelhaupt

And that's really a topic where we could learn a lot and where we could also now influence or not influence. We are writing, let me say the standards with all the people together from the grid perspective, from the measurement perspective, and also from the gas installation perspective to the boiler at least. So, in all areas the standards needs to be adapted, and we are working on that.

[00:20:07.550] - Jon Slowe

I guess that's quite a natural step in this type of, you know, introducing a different type of gas. You're going to need different standards; you're going to want to test it carefully first and then in some houses and then work out how to adapt those standards. Zoltan, the sorts of learnings that Swen described in this project, are they typical of the learnings from other projects or are other projects coming out with some different learnings or looking to test different things? For example, in the Netherlands you don't necessarily have basements with boilers. They're in the attic or in the UK they're on the kitchen wall, for example. So, similar learnings everywhere else or some big differences or different areas where… Where the trials are focusing.

[00:20:57.230] - Zoltan Karpathy

In a way, similar learnings, especially on the gas distribution side. So, looking at the gas main pipes and existing gas pipes in the homes. So, fairly similar learnings in terms of that these pipes can remain in place and are compatible with hydrogen, they just need to be flushed. In terms of the installations so, for the other two trials I mentioned, there is not such a big variety in terms of heating system configurations. So, in Lochem case it's more combi gas boilers installed in all the houses with the Wagenborgen trials hybrid heat pumps. The key learnings there is or are, the fact that they look like the boilers, what they replace. And basically, the homeowners need the familiarity with those equipment so, they can also fit into the existing place of where the old gas boilers were in Netherlands, case that typically in the attic. So, that obviously is a key learning that to bring the homeowners on board these products, these hydrogen heating devices need to look and feel in a similar way how compared to the old appliances they replace.

[00:22:28.940] - Jon Slowe

So, those before and after photos that Swen said they look the same in the basement in the German homes. You again get similar before and after photos.

[00:22:39.300] - Zoltan Karpathy

Yes, totally.

[00:22:40.700] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. I'd like to move on a bit to something called municipal energy plans in Germany. So, for listeners that aren't familiar, there have been various... Well, heating has become a mainstream topic of discussion in Germany. With the heating hammer, as it was called, or the proposed legislation to move away from gas boilers has softened and now each municipality has to come up with an energy plan as to how it's going to decarbonise heat. And municipalities could take the lead in going in a certain direction. In electrification, a heat network, a hydrogen direction, or combinations of those. Swen, can you tell us a bit about where those municipal energy plans are? My understanding is they start with the biggest cities first and first insights from the direction that those municipal energy plans are taking.

[00:23:45.070] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yeah, so for sure we are not directly in discussion with this with this, let me say cities or smaller locations.

[00:23:55.630] - Jon Slowe

But at least your job is to come in with a solution with whatever direction they take.

[00:24:00.130] - Swen Engelhaupt

Yes, but at the end of the day, we are involved for sure. And we are spoken quite a lot with the big energy providers in Germany, like EnBW or RWE and so on. So, the big ones in Germany or E.ON, we are in contact for sure. And yes, so we see that the big cities, bigger than 100,000 inhabitants, has to provide this municipal heating plans by 2026. And we see now, first results from first cities and the interesting thing is now depends of things, people, meaning and things like that. So, it is now more, let me say, set it up to basements and to realities, I would call that, because you have to have a plan also to finance that, yeah. By the local area, so by the cities or by the smaller areas. And therefore, you have to be very realistic what is possible to do and whatnot. And so, that's really coming more focused now on the differentiation of the assets you have in your area, yeah, and that is what we see. So, we hear, and this is not official, actually, therefore I will not tell in detail, but we hear that some of the cities, of the big cities, or the majority, I would call will a plan with molecules, so it means with hydrogen or with green gas, so synthetic natural gas or things like that, yeah.

[00:25:43.630] - Swen Engelhaupt

So that's what we see. As I said, it is not officialised now. So, we are closing contact with the DVGW and with the Thuga, which are supporting these plannings and actually there are are filling databases for the big cities, what will come out. And for sure we have to react and follow up these outcomes to see what's going on in the market and what we can support with what solution.

[00:26:18.760] - Jon Slowe

Sandra, we were chatting the other day about a different aspect of the energy market, actually, and you had this word for, I think, a hot potato or something that everyone is passing around and is too hot to hold. And it reminds me a bit of the heating debate

[00:26:35.020] - Sandra Trittin

Yes.

[00:26:37.340] - Jon Slowe

Where it's been a lot of discussion around how we're going to do it. But Swen, listening to you talk, the municipalities now have to not only plan, but finance. So, Sandra, I don't know if you remember this word, but it feels like they're having to hold this hot potato, or you've got a wonderful word in Germany.

[00:26:53.420] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the heiße Kartoffel. So, it's the right translation that you took, right. It's the heiße Kartoffel that you pass over and no one wants to hold, and no one wants to take care of. But it seems now the heiße Kartoffel ended with the municipalities, right. Which is one way to solve it, but puts quite a financial burden on the municipalities, which surprises me, because many of them are not really doing well, right. Especially the smaller ones are struggling anyway already. So, it will be interesting to see how this financing question will be solved in the future.

[00:27:31.330] - Swen Engelhaupt

Absolutely, absolutely. Because one of the consequences of this municipal heating plans, it is at the end of the day they have to prove that in their official governance of this of the cities or of the smaller areas, of the... Of the landlords, of things like that. So, you have really to do it as a... As a regulation. Yeah, so as approved regulation. And then it is mandatory to follow up that. And therefore, you have to make it possible also for the people to follow up that. And you. You cannot say, okay, you have to... You have to sold your house because you are not able to do a transition and this would be not feasible for the mayors and for the responsible. So, and therefore they really need to think about what they are able to do in the direction of this transformation. So, and this is exactly, you said this heiße Kartoffel is now at the. At the. At the level of the cities and landlords and things like that. Yes.

[00:28:34.800] - Jon Slowe

There's another phrase I've heard in Spanish which is different, but I think it describes the situation well, which is kicking the wall back. So, when you avoid making a decision, you just kick the wall back. But things like, we're approaching the time in Germany when these municipal energy plans are published, and there must be a lot of people really interested to see what comes out, to see which direction the municipalities will take.

[00:29:01.290] - Swen Engelhaupt

Absolutely, absolutely. And there's also different qualities, I have to say. So, there are cities which are very well, doing that with a high professionality and things like that, but there are also others which are, let me say, doing standard things. And you can directly see it, how they are communicating to the people living there, because there are cities that are reading, doing or offering status reports and inviting people to talk about what they do, what they would like to do, and so on and so on and others just doing, let me say, them for themselves and do not tell something about that. So, it's a very big variety in this doing procedure, which is logical because as usual, you do not have so many experts to do all these things on the Same time in 11,000 areas in Germany where we have to do it. So, this is simply impossible to have the same quality and the same standard everywhere. And that's also interesting then how it will level up that and how it come together. Because at the end of the day, and then we are coming back to the starting point of today, it has to fit to an infrastructure, to a backbone and to a gas grid which is existing as an asset.

[00:30:21.750] - Swen Engelhaupt

And this needs to come together at a certain point of time. And then you have to take decisions to build a part of distribution network to come to the backbone or whatever. And this is exactly what depends on what's going on in the bigger cities and in the industry then.

[00:30:44.520] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. And I've heard one city, and I don't know how common it will be amongst the different German municipalities going down a slightly different route where they've got a really strong heat network and they've decided, actually we don't think we'll have a gas grid because we think we can use the heat network and the electricity network to deliver heat. So, yeah, fascinating time, Sandra. I think there's probably an area we should devote a podcast to itself, the municipal energy plans and looking at...

[00:31:13.930] - Sandra Trittin

Yes. I think so. Especially with the. Yeah, as I said with the road, the municipalities have already today in the society and the situations they are in. I think that will be quite interesting.

[00:31:25.730] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. And then Netherlands has a slightly different approach, but similarly looking at, I think, local authorities working to plot routes forward for decarbonisation of heat. Anyway, we're getting to that time in the podcast where we better bring out the talking new energy crystal ball. Those who are at the LCP Delta Summit would have seen it in action. So, questions to Swen and Zoltan. Swen let's set the dial to 2030 for both of you. Swen, how clear do you think the pathway will be in 2030 for decarbonising heat in Germany? And if you want to add what the role of hydrogen will be, but that's only if you think it will be clear. And Zoltan, for you, the question what do you expect to see in terms of hydrogen for heating trials and activities in the next years? Lots more of the sorts of things you've described or different types of trials and activities. So, Swen, you first and then you, Zoltan.

[00:32:36.010] - Swen Engelhaupt

Okay. Yeah. It's always not easy to have the crystal ball very clean. So, we try to do our best to do so. But at the end of the day, as I said, I believe, yeah, I believe that the industry will get the hydrogen, so the backbone is built or will be built. So, it's decided, and the investment is going on. Therefore, we will have, depending on the region, we will have areas which will get hydrogen in larger or smaller scales. Therefore, I'm very convinced that this will be the case. We will have local solutions where will not support it by the backbone. So, like in Hohenwart, so we see here regions which build up their local solutions to get, let me say, free of the different influences. So, they will produce their own hydrogen, electricity, whatever, or energy. Let's call up that. So, that you will have local areas depending on their resources, situation, what they have, which will be there, which is good by the end of the day. And we should use what we have, yeah. In the different regions. And this can differ significantly, yeah. From the one region to another.

[00:33:47.950] - Swen Engelhaupt

And therefore, I see clearly that we will have hydrogen in commercial solutions. We will have some hydrogen in home. In homes, I would say depending on this municipal heating plan. So, that's quite clear what I see from our point of view.

[00:34:09.970] - Sandra Trittin

And how about you, Zoltan? How do you see the future and the application of hydrogen?

[00:34:19.290] - Zoltan Karpathy

Yes, yes. So, I can't argue with Swen. In a lot of cases, it's actually echoing what he just mentioned. So, in my view, yes, the municipal heating plants will have clarified by then that hydrogen will have a role in decarbonisation, and it will be how Swen described that there will be certain areas where this will apply to. Together with that, I would expect the hydrogen infrastructure to be or part of the hydrogen infrastructure to be already in place in Netherlands. And part of that will be the connection with Germany as well. And in terms of UK, by that time, the UK will have made this positive strategic decision a few years prior to 2030. So, 2026 is the date we're waiting for and I will see that the hydrogen will have a role in decarbonising heat in the UK as well. Specifically on the hydrogen for heat trials, so, by that time, by 2030, I would expect some larger scale residential hydrogen for heat trials to be already completed or to be well underway. Earlier in the podcast I mentioned the H100 that should be done by then. There is the Hoogeveentrial as well, which should be underway.

[00:35:47.600] - Zoltan Karpathy

In terms of trials, I would also expect them to be looking at how hydrogen can be used for larger applications for commercial applications This is something what the current trials don't look at. And another point which is open for trials really is that to see how hydrogen supply can be balanced on a larger scale distribution network with the increasing decarbonisation on the demand side, obviously inevitably a variable demand.

[00:36:22.930] - Jon Slowe

Well, thanks both. I think you cleaned up the crystal border to give some really nice insights into your views of the future. Swen, thanks so much for your time. Zoltan, thanks for contributing your expertise. Really appreciate your time today. Great talking with you both.

[00:36:40.950] - Zoltan Karpathy

Thank you for inviting us.

[00:36:42.070] - Swen Engelhaupt

Thank you.

[00:36:42.590] - Sandra Trittin

Thank you, Jon. This time it's on you that you start about the question, like what is the key insight or the key challenger also that you see out of what we have heard now, what sticks in your mind from the discussion that we have now with Swen and Zoltan?

[00:37:05.720] - Jon Slowe

I think two things. One is decarbonisation of heat using hydrogen is attractive because of the simplicity of one white box out, a similar size white box in, and that a heat pump can be a straightforward installation, but it's always a bit more complex than swapping out a gas boiler box for a hydrogen boiler, a natural gas boiler box for a hydrogen gas boiler box. I think the wider question which everyone's always drawn to is what will that balance be between electrification and hydrogen? And I think certain industrial processes, it's clear that hydrogen will probably be a key to decarbonising some of those industrial processes. And then the question is, and how much of heat, residential heat, will be hydrogen, how much will be electricity? And what would those proportions look like? And it's fascinating, I think, to look forward to the municipal energy plans, which will provide some. Shed some more light onto that. What's your view, Sandra? What stood out to you?

[00:38:22.990] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, to be honest, for me, it stood mostly out that it's again, a question about the implementation and execution of a technology. So, it's not so much anymore about the technology itself. I mean, for sure, there are questions in the detail about the application of hydrogen and how to make that happen, but the biggest question is like, how do we implement it? To whom do we implement it? How does the business model look like? Who's doing the financing? And it seems currently that this is a general, broader question, right. If we zoom out a little bit overall in the energy transition, that we have all of that technology available, but now it's much more about finding the right way on how to make the implementation and the execution happens. And that in a decent amount of time, right. Because the clock is ticking. And so we should not miss out any time.

[00:39:22.750] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. In a decent time. Which will affect everyone's home in some way.

[00:39:28.630] - Sandra Trittin

Exactly. And as I'm sitting also on the board of a gas supplier or of a former gas supplier who's now in the energy transition, I know also that it's not as easy, right, if you have to convince every client, every single consumer to go into their home and change something. So, this is why I also personally think the application will start more on the big scale applications like industrial customers. But then at one point in time, as you said also Jon and also mentioned by Swen, there will be some implications also on single homes.

[00:40:07.410] - Jon Slowe

Well, certainly an area that we'll talk about again and again, I'm sure, Sandra, from different angles and different directions for sure.

[00:40:14.400] - Sandra Trittin

And I'm very much looking forward to it. It's exciting.

[00:40:18.570] - Jon Slowe

Okay, let's leave it there for today. Thanks everyone for listening. We hope you enjoyed the episode and look forward to welcoming you back next week. Thanks, and goodbye.

[00:40:29.650] - Sandra Trittin

Thank you very much. Bye. Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transitions. If you got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know.

 

[00:40:44.440] - Jon Slowe

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