Hydrogen and aviation

In this episode, we explore how ZeroAvia are working on decarbonising aviation using hydrogen. Jon and Sandra talk with Sergey Kiselev, Chief Business Officer at ZeroAvia, a UK/US-based company developing a hydrogen-fuel cell powertrain for light and medium-sized aircraft and Brendan Murphy, Head of Hydrogen at LCP Delta.

Episode transcript

[00:00:04.520] - Jon Slowe 

Welcome to talking new energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe. 

[00:00:09.230] - Sandra Trittin 

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition. 

[00:00:19.210] - Jon Slowe 

Hello, Sandra. 

[00:00:20.300] - Sandra Trittin 

Hi, Jon. How are you? 

[00:00:22.530] - Jon Slowe 

I'm good. How are you doing? 

[00:00:24.050] - Sandra Trittin 

I'm fine. And I'm really excited about today's podcast because we are talking about the decarbonisation in the power and transport part. And we know it's quite difficult and quite challenging, but we are already on the right trajectory. And in some of the other podcasts, we have been talking a lot about decarbonisation, also of heating and of electrical mobility, etcetera. But today it's especially exciting because we are talking about aviation. And I think, or I can imagine that this is really, really hard. 

[00:01:00.370] - Jon Slowe 

Yeah, and it's hard. I looked up some figures to prepare, and aviation accounts for about 2.5% of global CO₂ emissions. But it's rising fast. And while that may feel like a small number, if we're going to reach net zero, we have to squash down every number, and particularly aviation we'll need to tackle. So, yeah, very intrigued to see what we learn and find out today about efforts to decarbonise aviation. 

[00:01:32.960] - Sandra Trittin 

Exactly. Everything, every CO2 tonne counts, right? 

[00:01:36.530] - Jon Slowe 

Absolutely. So today we have a guest from a company called ZeroAvia, which really excited to talk to you about, and a colleague from LCP Delta who's been leading work on hydrogen and the role of hydrogen in decarbonising aviation. Let's say hello to our guests. 

[00:01:59.570] - Sandra Trittin 

Yes. Hello, Sergey. Great to have you today here from ZeroAvia with us. Could you give us a quick introduction to your person and a short elevator pitch for ZeroAvia and what you're doing there? 

[00:02:13.570] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for having us here on your podcast. And, yeah, I'm Sergey and I'm a chief business officer at ZeroAvia. This is my fifth-year full time with the company and before I joined it as an early investor, prior to that, I had quite a few stints in the area of renewables. Prior to ZeroAvia, I was working for eMotorwerks, the manufacturer of smart charging solutions for electrical vehicles. And before that I worked extensively on the ways to decarbonise sectors in former Soviet Union countries with Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia, and did some country strategies and some practical works on how to introduce renewables in the power mix. ZeroAvia is a company which is about seven years old, and we are the manufacturer of hydrogen, electric powertrain for the aircraft. And you can consider us as the Rolls Royce of sustainable aviation. So, we are producing the engine for the aircraft and then this engine, of course, is installed on different types of aircraft. Now we are working on, we believe in the incremental approach. So, we start with the small aircraft. We have flown six-seater aircraft, now we are flying 19 seater aircraft and in a few years, it will be something like 50 to 60 seater and so on and so forth. 

[00:04:03.800] - Sergey Kiselev 

Because it is important to get the credibility with the market and show the results to both our customers and investors. This is exactly what we have. We have very good attraction with our customers at this point. We have more than 2000 engines on order. And this is great news for our not so small start-up at this point. And happy to delve into any discussions today. 

[00:04:40.140] - Jon Slowe 

Sergey, that's a fantastic order book you've got in terms of giving our listeners a sense of the size of your company. Have you got any metrics in terms of number of people or amount of funding raised or number of engines that you've built so far that will help to give our listeners an idea of scale? 

[00:04:59.850] - Sergey Kiselev 

We have about 300 people globally and it is split between mostly UK and the States. And so far, we got quite a few rounds. We just closed crown and overall, we got about quarter billion of both public and private money into the company. 

[00:05:26.940] - Sandra Trittin 

Wow. Impressive. 

[00:05:29.640] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, it is impressive, but also, it's not. It is a hard work to, to get this financing. But the thing is that aviation is not a cheap industry. And that's why it's been extremely hard to decarbonise, or it was extremely hard to innovate in the industry because it is extremely capital intense. And in order to do, just to give you an example, if you want to test the car, the car costs a few tens of thousands of dollars. Now, if you want to try something on the aircraft, you start to talk about millions. That's the ballpark difference, even just for the single article, if you want to acquire. 

[00:06:22.900] - Sandra Trittin 

But then I think it would be great also to get a perspective from our second guest. Jon, what do you think from LCP Delta's head of hydrogen, Brendan Murphy, and probably Brendan, you also have a bit of a wider perspective of the aviation sector and the activities in hydrogen related topics. 

[00:06:43.360] - Brenden Murphy 

Yeah, thanks Andre, and thanks Sergey, for joining us. It's really interesting to hear what you've just described there. I mean, from my perspective, I mean, over the last couple of years, it seemed like we've had a really tough time in hydrogen as a sort of a broader sector, the global energy market crisis, gas prices, volatility in the supply chains, really putting quite a lot of pressure on hydrogen project developers, which, of course, is the starting point, and the source of the fuel itself, which will end up in the various sectors, including aviation. Listening to what you've just described there about your firm and where you sit in the value chain and the efforts you've made over the last seven years, I have to say, I have a lot of admiration for your bravery and trying to move into aviation, decarbonising, using hydrogen. It seems like a really challenging space to be. In particular, when you talk about how much capital you can move through quite quickly, we looked at the sector at the end of last year to try to get a grip of, you know, who the main players are, what the main actors are doing. 

[00:08:00.480] - Brenden Murphy 

And one thing that struck me immediately was, at the moment, as the hydrogen economy develops, you get quite local production and consumption of hydrogen, necessarily, because it's quite difficult to move it around. So, therefore, you get quite local and regionalised prices and mini markets developing, whereas aviation, of course, is an enormous global sector. And the one thing I thought was, it's quite an interesting challenge for anybody operating in that space, because I suppose initially, you're looking to collaborate and try to develop international standards together and try to support each other to grow the sector, but at the same time, it becomes quite competitive when you start to get a foothold, I suppose, and you need more investments. And I'm interested to get your perspective on, as a firm, how you manage that, how you manage different countries, moving in different political directions, and keeping your business investable, and trying to sort of stay on the leading edge of the sector. I sort of see it almost a bit like where Tesla were with EV's several years ago. You're moving into market as a new entrant, a lot of challenges, but your brand is really growing, but you're challenging some of the bigger players out there. Quite keen to get your perspective on that. 

[00:09:30.500] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, one of the reasons, for example, you know, we have such a diverse footprint is because we started as a US company. So, we started in the Bay Area, in California, and then it was the years of the Trump administration, and of course, there was a low priority on our sector, and the companies started to look around and trying to assess where would be more prioritised and reasonable access to public money. UK actually was at that point, the most attractive and arguably still getting public money in the UK for the start-up in our sector, or in any innovative sector might be significantly easier than in other countries. So, for example, what happened with us was that we got big grant, it was about $8 million from UK government, and the only condition was to bring hydrogen development here to the UK and this is exactly what we did. And therefore, out of our footprint of about 300 people, more than 200 are actually located here in the UK. Just because of that, because we started to grow the company here. Now, the second point you mentioned was, how is it competing or working with the bigger players or the big players? 

[00:11:24.060] - Sergey Kiselev 

And what we see is that, similar to Tesla, the incumbents are either moving very slow or they are very resistant to actually enter into the sector. You can make this judgement based on public statements or our discussions with different players, and you can see that some of them are actually moving, oscillating back and forth, for example, starting some hydrogen programmes and then saying that it's not the priority anymore. And this is what we observe among the incumbents. And I think that it is good and it's bad for us. But at the end of the day, what happened in the last five years, for example, is that when we talk to any aviation, big aviation player who go to aviation conferences and we start talking about hydrogen, electric evolutionary revolution, as I said, 2019 - 2020, nobody was taken as seriously because they were saying, you're not flying yet, it's all on PowerPoint presentations. But now, as you can see, hydrogen and aviation is one of the hottest topics. And, you know, we believe that this is the only scalable way or scalable solution to decarbonise aviation. While there are other solutions like electrical, you know, fully electrical aviation, which is good for, or, you know, can solve some of the short hop, short distance flights, or sustainable synthetic aviation fuel, which is, you know, drop in fuel. 

[00:13:26.230] - Sergey Kiselev 

But it's either has a scarce feedstock. If you're talking about the fats, you know, transformation to SAF (sustainable aviation fuel), or if you talk about eFuels, they are super expensive. They're about eight times more expensive than, you know, we want them to be. So therefore, hydrogen is, we believe is, is the only scalable solution here. And also, don't forget that the number which Jon quoted at the beginning, 2.5% of emissions. This is only CO2 emissions. And we are not talking about other good stuff like NOx ((nitric oxide (NO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2)), and soot and contrails, which created during the flights. Then if you look at the other induced environmental impact, you will see that the contribution of aviation sector is closer to 5%. Therefore, the size of the problem is actually increasing. In case of hydrogen, we are tackling most of this emission, both CO2 and most of the induced, other induced stuff which is emitted currently. 

[00:14:54.870] - Brenden Murphy 

Can I just pick up on the points about SAF, because as you sort of imply, SAF is not in itself entirely clean, and hydrogen is a much cleaner solution. But the policy framework, at least in Europe and the UK, is still quite SAF heavy versus sort of clean hydrogen. The trajectory, the proportion of fuels used in the future that they sort of, as you see it, ramping up. I'm quite interested to understand how you sort of square that circle a little bit with the investment case. Do you see it? I mean, it's quite typical in a way, for the way Europe sets out of policy is to be quite cautious initially, and not to back the sort of new innovative kid on the block, and to sort of take a transition step from where they are today to somewhere in between, to perhaps the future, the fuel of the future. But interested to know how you sort of square that circle a little bit with your investors and how do you gain that confidence that hydrogen will eventually, pure hydrogen, will eventually actually overtake SAF as a, as you say, is the only real option for proper true decarbonisation of the sector. 

[00:16:11.400] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah. If you talk about the impact of SAF use, you know, combustion in the traditional engine, is that again, coming back to math, to overall emission budget, you have CO2 and roughly as much, plus, minus. Different research shows slightly different results. But give or take, about as much of the environmental impact comes from the very fact of burning the fuel, the combustion of the carbohydrate in at high temperature. Okay? So, by using SAF, SAF is a drop in fuel. So basically, you produce it and you can use it in the traditional engine. Okay? So that's the benefit number one. The benefit number two is that just due to the feedstock, it is carbon neutral, okay? But then when it, when you combusted all this induced stuff, again, NOx and contrails and soot, etcetera, it is still produced, so it's not eliminated. So roughly, let's say half of what you know of the environmental impact still stays there. Okay? So half is better than full, right? Than 100%. So therefore, it is, and it can be used right away without any modification or pretty much with some modifications, but without significant modifications of the turbines and the existing engines. 

[00:17:51.520] - Sergey Kiselev 

So therefore, the policy, the existing policy sees that as the focus for solving the, let's call it, meet the term problem, right? 

[00:18:11.340] - Jon Slowe 

And I guess that's your challenge and your opportunity. It's, it's the, I wouldn't say the easy solution, but SAF is an obvious solution because it's a drop in fuel, as you say, just rather listeners perspective. In my mind, I see very short haul. You've got full battery electric vehicles, perhaps very long haul. You've got SAF sustainable aviation fuels and the direct hydrogen to fuel cell to electric. That powertrain you're working on, that could be anything from short to medium, probably never long because of the storage of the hydrogen. Is that the right way to think about the three solutions? 

[00:18:55.580] - Sergey Kiselev 

In a short medium term, you can think like this, although I think that we can probably beat batteries because batteries have their own limitations, because a) the time of you need to charge them and b) you know, the price associated with the charging discharging event. So, I think that the cost of using batteries are actually more expensive than hydrogen. But in terms of the timeline of adoption of hydrogen, the way we see it is that, and this is where I started, that we believe in incremental approach. We need to gain the market trust, in particular in safety of operating hydrogen electric in the aircraft. Therefore, our first commercial entry into the service will be in the next couple of years with Cessna Caravan. This is a small aircraft and there are about, I think, 2500 of those flying around the world. So, they have pretty good instal base. And then as the next step in the next two years, we will get the programme of the large Turboprop. So, this is the 50 to 60 passenger aircraft already flying on hydrogen. And then right after that, we will get into the regional aircraft with about 1000 miles mission profile, with about 9200 seat passengers on the aircraft. 

[00:20:49.080] - Sergey Kiselev 

And this is the next, I would say, seven, maybe ten years on the horizon and these three groups of the aircraft. So basically, again, the small aircraft below 19 seats, the large Turboprop and the regional aircraft, they can be retrofitted, not very easily, but we have the technological solutions for all of this, sizes of the aircraft. Now, for the larger size, for the narrow bodies and then wide bodies, we need to have some redesign of the airframe, because while hydrogen is the most energy dense media, energy storage or fuel, but it occupies significant space, so it requires about, in different forms. If we're talking about liquid, it's three times more than the traditional jet fuel. So, you need to have quite a bit of the redesign of the body of the aircraft itself. And we see that that can be done already. There were some projects, for example, here in the UK, there was flight zero programme, which was run by the Airspace Technology Institute for about a year, which came with some of the design of the narrowbody construction. So, it is doable, but it will require some additional work. 

[00:22:36.580] - Sandra Trittin 

And I would have a question based on that, Sergey, because now we have been talking a lot around the aircraft itself and how it will change over time. But I assume you also need some special infrastructure at all of the airports. And so, all the airports also need to be adapted or expanded. And not only with, let's say, physical infrastructure, but there needs to be also maintenance teams or all the different needs, right. That the normal aircraft has as well. How does that work? And is there like a huge willingness to cooperate, or is it more seen as competition? Can you give us some insights there? 

[00:23:17.670] - Sergey Kiselev 

It is a good question, and this is one of the big problems in terms of adopting something new. Again, if you look at electrical vehicles, there are still some barriers for people to switch in terms of hydrogen infrastructure. Let's start there. I think that, you know, what we have already demonstrated here, first at Cranfield airport, now in Campbell airport in the UK, is that you can do localised production using electrolysis. You can do the storage, compression and storage of gas on the airport premises, and then you can do the refuelling. So, that can be done. And now, if you start talking about each individual airport, and there are not that many airports, let's say, you know, there are about 500 meaningful airports of the, you know, the meaningful commercial operations in the States, for example, or something like 50 here in the UK. So, it's not a big number. That's why the adoption of hydrogen and aviation will be much better than for passenger vehicles, for example. 

[00:24:42.990] - Jon Slowe 

And you only need to start with a few. I imagine you need a few routes, a few airports that electrolysis, local storage of hydrogen, refuelling, that's not a technical challenge, that's more just an infrastructure development challenge. 

[00:24:58.470] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, yeah. And especially for the early, for the small aircraft. So, up to the 19-seat aircraft will be flying on gases, hydrogen. So that's... 

[00:25:11.910] - Jon Slowe 

Yeah. 

[00:25:12.230] - Sergey Kiselev 

That's I wouldn't say it very easy, but you know... 

[00:25:15.610] - Jon Slowe 

It's more straightforward. 

[00:25:17.320] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, it's more straightforward. And there are no super technological challenges. So now, when we talk to customers, the first sort of piece of work which we do with them is let's have a look at your network. So, how do you fly now from which airports and how do your aircraft fly during the day? And based on that, we can come up with a map of solutions for each particular customer in terms of maybe somewhere we need to have the electrolysis with the localised storage somewhere. Maybe we need to have only a storage. 

[00:26:06.520] - Jon Slowe 

Sergey is a customer, an airport, an airline, a company like Cessna, a manufacturer. Who is your customer? And the way you describe it now. 

[00:26:16.730] - Sergey Kiselev 

It's a good question. So, typically, the way it works in the industry is that the customer who is most interested in this is the airline, because they are considered... 

[00:26:32.050] - Jon Slowe 

Their customer face, public facing. 

[00:26:34.030] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yes, exactly. They are the most interested in decarbonisation because they are oppressed by their end customers. Now, when we first we do this map, of course, of different solutions which we can offer to the customer, but then we need to talk to the airports, because at the end of the day, all this infrastructure is going to be on their premises. And we have quite an extensive set of agreements with different airports. So, for example, here in the UK, this is Southampton, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Birmingham. There are some other airports with whom we haven't disclosed some of our relationship with. In Europe, for example, Rotterdam airport was our first agreement. There are some agreements in the States, in Canada. So there, the conversation with the airports is coming, actually, from the angle of how do we make the airports prepared for the energy transition. So, they interested in both, actually, hydrogen and electric, because, you know, they hear a lot from the industry that the electric might be a solution. So, they are interested in how to make the airports future proof, and that's why they're talking to us. But the interesting thing is that on top of basically energy independence or localised energy supply, which can be provided by hydrogen, hydrogen can find quite a few other uses on airport premises. 

[00:28:34.620] - Sergey Kiselev 

And you probably heard about some of the pilot projects where airports move all or significant portion of their ground equipment to hydrogen. Okay, so then hydrogen can provide, can be, as you know, serve as a source of actually energy stored on the airport and then utilised in case of emergencies. So, you know, as if it's, you know, to increase the resiliency of the energy system of the airport, instead of, for example, diesel generators, you can use the hydrogen fuel cell and either locally produce hydrogen or transported hydrogen and use that to generate electricity in a very eco-friendly way. 

[00:29:29.480] - Jon Slowe 

Sergey, we talked quite a lot about, I guess, the market development fundamentally ZeroAvia, I would imagine you describe as a technology company, you're developing the electric drivetrain, but listening to the conversation, it seems like there's two jobs. There's developing your electric drivetrain and that wider ecosystem development, which I'm sure you're not doing alone, but you will need to drive a lot of that yourself, I imagine. Is that how you think of it? You're doing those two jobs? Or is it an equal balance between two? Or is the market development more on the side to the core technology, product development? 

[00:30:10.100] - Sergey Kiselev 

It is not easy to sell, to sell a dream. It is not easy to sell something which we are just developing. And people cannot just come. If this is an iPhone, people can touch it, right? 

[00:30:23.510] - Jon Slowe 

Yeah. 

[00:30:24.940] - Sergey Kiselev 

Here we are selling or developing a story together with our customers. And the story is, okay, you know, it sounds pretty, pretty reasonable and pretty credible that we are a small company or, you know, now it's, you know, getting to the larger size of the, of the small size of companies, right. We are, we have demonstrated that we can do the technology, and now we want to look at ourselves as a catalyst of this energy transition so, which can pull different players. And we already discussed about customers. We talked about the airports, of course. All our supply chain, you know, needs to be airspace grade. And last but not the least is we are working together with the regulators, with the FAA, CIA. We had some great attraction with EASA as well. So, all these components needs to be, or different thrusts of work needs to be done in parallel. And the last but not the least is the interaction with the airframer, because we are the engine manufacturer. So, we need to work with the guys who actually manufacture the aircraft, be that for the line fit for the retrofit or the installation of our powertrain on the new aircraft. 

[00:32:09.670] - Sergey Kiselev 

So, all this work needs to be done in parallel, and we need to create and educate the market. The passion and excitement about this is humongous. Now it's a matter of delivery and on time delivery on our promise. Frankly, we are moving faster than anybody else in the industry, and I think that it's good to be as a front runner. But you know, it costs some. We make some mistakes internally, or some of the things don't go as fast as they could have been. But overall, I think that by the industry standards, we are moving quite amazingly fast and educating the industry. 

[00:33:07.970] - Jon Slowe 

In seven years, you've achieved a huge amount of, and you know, I guess there's things you have to juggle, the raising the money, the technology, the product, all the other things just mentioned, regulators, airports, et cetera. Must keep you very busy, Sergey. 

[00:33:26.760] - Sergey Kiselev 

Yeah, it is. It is. But I think that it's the mission and the vision is very exciting. 

[00:33:33.150] - Jon Slowe 

That's your energy. 

[00:33:34.120] - Sergey Kiselev 

I don't have questions why I wake up in the morning and why I go to work. In some of my previous gigs, I had this question a few times a day, but here I don't have these questions. And I think that this is what unites the team, this is what unites our partners and clients. And I think that the key takeaway out of this, if you want, is that hydrogen electric is tough, but it is becoming a reality, and you will see it flying commercially very soon, in the next couple of years, first on the small scale and then on the larger and larger scale. But this is a journey, and it's important to start small and fly, then draw great pictures and have nice PowerPoints and sell it to the investors. 

[00:34:39.770] - Brenden Murphy 

It's very impressive, the cooperation and collaboration that goes into doing that, and the sort of investment, not just the financial investment, the investment of energy and will and willpower to make it happen, to turn it from what you said was just the PowerPoint seven years ago into the product that it is today. So, it's very impressive. 

[00:35:02.140] - Jon Slowe 

Time is getting the better of us. I think we've all got loads more we'd like to discuss together. So, let's bring out the talking new energy crystal ball. Sergey, you talked a bit about your vision, but let's set the dial this week to 2030, and can you give us an elevator pitch for ZeroAvia in 2030 and then isolate your single biggest challenge to reaching that between now and 2030? And, Brendan, can you give us a view of where you think sustainable aviation will be in 2030 and elevate a pitch for that from the year 2030? So, Sergey, let's start with you. 

[00:35:45.050] - Sergey Kiselev 

And then, Brendan, so 2030 ZeroAvia has achieved significant impact in terms of decarbonisation of the industry by flying, but by conquering regional aircraft segment and developing and having the first prototypes of the narrow bodies flying on hydrogen. And the biggest challenge at this point is actually providing the supply of hydrogen at this point. 

[00:36:30.260] - Jon Slowe 

Okay. Okay, Brendan, sustainable aviation, 2030 elevator pitch, or one or two standouts. 

[00:36:36.800] - Brenden Murphy 

So, quite similar, in a sense. I think we'll see those first sort of commercial flights picking up and it becoming more socially acceptable, not acceptable, but the awareness of hydrogen powered flight becomes more normalised. I think the greatest challenge, I think, for the sector is a kind of global cooperation piece as an app. There's four major pieces to this puzzle as we've sort of touched on the manufacturers, the airlines, the airports, the manufacturers. Stringing that all together in a way that doesn't hinder the sort of transition is going to be the biggest challenge. 2030 is also just around the corner, too, so it will come very quickly. 

[00:37:22.730] - Jon Slowe 

Well, Sergey, thanks so much for your time. It's been very inspirational. And educational to have this conversation. Brendan, thanks for your contribution, your perspectives and expertise. It's going to need the clean hydrogen sector to develop at pace over the next years and make that hydrogen available, Sergey, to you and others for these clean applications. Sandra, what's your takeaways or what stands out for you in the discussion today? 

[00:37:56.280] - Sandra Trittin 

Sandra, so first of all, also, thank you both. That was tremendously exciting. I cannot say I was not using the plane many times in the past, and I'm experiencing now also some of the changes and discussions that are going on around aviation and how to make it more sustainable. What was standing out to me today, Jon, is again that we see technology is there, the willingness to change is there, but we need to get it going now, right. And also, the money is there. So, Sergey, as you were saying, how much money you raised? Even though investors know that it's a long-term investment. So, it's about that sentence. And Brendan, you were mentioning it beforehand, right. It's about let's make it happen, right. Let's get that going. But it's great to see that finally it kicks off really also in the aviation space, because the majority of people is talking about eMobility, like the local transport, about trains, about buses, etcetera. But now, finally, the perspective and the focus is also going on to flying, right. And I think there are two angles to that. It's not only about the people flying, but also about the goods flying around, right. There was that example, it's already a few years ago, but that yoghurt that you would eat at home sometimes travel 52,000 kilometres in total with all its material until it ends on your table, right. And for sure, some of it might be also via plane. But then what's your perspective, Jon? What's your takeaway? 

[00:39:41.810] - Jon Slowe 

My takeaway, I think, is that the boldness of companies like ZeroAvia to be the Tesla of aviation, maybe that's the wrong phrase, but to create this market, to take the technology, to get it to a point where it can be commercialised in a really tough sector like aviation, which is with all the regulations and safety requirements, and then to put all the things in place around that. So, I share your view, Sandra, that we don't have time, we need to move really fast. And it takes people and companies without that bravery to drive it forward, so... 

[00:40:16.690] - Sandra Trittin 

Yeah, it's great to see that it's moving and great to see that there are people like Sergey and his team, right. And I think we just need to get that going. 

[00:40:26.610] - Jon Slowe 

Absolutely. Well, let's leave it there. For today. Hope that everyone listening has enjoyed the episode today, giving you new perspectives, and maybe encourage you to write to your regional or local airline and say, when are you becoming more sustainable? And have you thought about hydrogen fuelled planes, if they haven't already? Thanks to everyone for listening. Thanks again, Brendan and Sergey and look forward to welcoming you back to the next episode soon. Thanks, and goodbye. 

[00:40:54.130] - Sandra Trittin 

Thank you as well. Bye. Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transitions. If you got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know. 

[00:41:07.360] - Jon Slowe 

Know and if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts, and more, please visit lcpdelta.com.