In conversation with... Bert Lutje Berenbroek, NET2GRID

[00:00:04.560] - Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.

[00:00:09.290] - Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin. And together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition.

[00:00:21.010] - Jon Slowe

Hello, Sandra.

[00:00:22.490] - Sandra Trittin

Hey, Jon. How are you doing?

[00:00:24.630] - Jon Slowe

Good, how are you?

[00:00:26.250] - Sandra Trittin

Fine, fine.

[00:00:29.450] - Jon Slowe

Sandra, I'm often quite impatient you probably noticed about the speed of the energy transition and how fast we're moving. And I want to do everything we can to get a faster pace of change in the energy transition. But like we've talked about and from experience, change takes time. And sometimes it feels a bit like turning this giant flywheel really slow to begin with and then faster and faster over time. So, yeah, am I too impatient, Sandra, or do you share that impatience?

[00:01:02.590] - Sandra Trittin

So, I would say I share that impatience, at least on the same level, or even worse, because I think we have no time to lose. We need to get that going. And the big question I'm always raising is like, what are we waiting for? We have many ingredients there to get it moving. So, I'm really excited about today's, about today's session and the exchange we are going to have and the perspective.

[00:01:35.450] - Jon Slowe

So, today we're speaking with Bert Lutje Berenbroek, who set up energy insights provider NET2GRID nearly twelve years ago. So, that's quite some time.

[00:01:47.340] - Sandra Trittin

Yes. and he has been holding a long time to that company, right. It's almost around the same time that tiko Energy Solutions, for example, was founded in many other companies, early movers, let's say, in that space. And it's also tough, as a founder, I think, to keep the wheel going and moving over that long time period. So, I'm really fascinated around the journey and where NET2GRID is today.

[00:02:21.420] - Jon Slowe

So, let's say hello to our guest. Hello, Bert.

[00:02:25.020] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Hello, Jon. Hi, Sandra.

[00:02:27.070] - Sandra Trittin

Hey, nice to meet you.

[00:02:29.220] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Nice to meet you.

[00:02:30.570] - Jon Slowe

Welcome to the podcast. So, Bert, we've had an episode a while back talking about NET2GRID's work with Radobank in the Netherlands in providing energy insights to their customers. But for those listeners that haven't listened to that, or whose memory could do with the refreshing, do you want to start with a quick elevator pitch on NET2GRID?

[00:02:50.910] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Jon. So, our product is EnergyAI, and we basically turn data, smart metre data into value for energy retailers, grid operators, but also banks and ISP's, service providers to consumers in the energy ecosystem. And we do this on both the cloud. So, we run our EnergyAI product in the cloud, but we also run it on the edge, on the new generation metres that are deployed in the US. We run our analysis both on high granular data, like real-time data on the edge, but as well on more the transactional metre data that is used for billing. So really easy to scale, low-cost solutions that can provide insight to millions of customers.

[00:03:44.630] - Jon Slowe

All based around that smart metre data, or other forms of data as well, I guess.

[00:03:50.240] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Also, better data we can ask. There's a dialogue option to interact with customers, to ask profile questions. Yeah, so other data as well, but especially for the grid side, we can derive a lot of value around distributed energy resources without any interaction. So, just on the data of millions of metres that we digest on a daily basis, we can derive not only what type of energy resources are in the grid behind-the-metre, but also how they behave. So, we can not only detect solar panels, but also detect the size of the panel installation. We can detect the hourly generation, so the production of solar, we can detect EV's, but also the type of charger people are using and the energy consumed per hour. So, these are, let's say the next step insights that we can derive that are extremely important to build the new demand-side response programmes.

[00:05:04.770] - Sandra Trittin

That's really exciting. So, probably can you also tell us a bit on what did let you start NET2GRID back in 2012? And would you say that what you had at that point in mind to start-up the company is still the same than today, or probably what has changed?

[00:05:29.230] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, that's a good question. So, my background is a background of semiconductors. I worked in the semiconductor industry in Silicon Valley a lot, and in my last years I was on the management team of a company called Amber Corporation, and this company was making Zigbee stacks and chips, Zigbee Smart Energy. We had Lutron, Anders+Kern as customers and we sold that company to Sylapse. And I noticed that the real-time data from metres was not used at all. And I was convinced that in the energy transition, when demand and supply has to be brought together, real-time data is essential. So, I decided to start this new company, NET2GRID, to connect the Internet to the electrical grid. Back then, with not much more ideas than to collect a lot of real-time data to build models. Over time, this developed into a company that is more of an AI company. We have a lot of data scientists that build models to derive value from data, but we really started as a data capturing company, building hardware, collecting data and deriving value from data.

[00:06:53.210] - Sandra Trittin

Wow must have been a hard one, especially on the hardware side. I know that from own experience it's not the most easiest path to take, but a lot of respect for that.

[00:07:05.450] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

It was not the easiest, but we were pretty good at it, and we had a lot of experience building hardware in China, designing our own hardware. And it in the end gave us a lot of advantage because when you're building AI models, the models are trained by data and if the data you collect is not accurate, is not good, is not of a good quality, your models will not be good. So, having full control over the data collection has been very important to us.

[00:07:43.720] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah.

[00:07:44.480] - Jon Slowe

Do you still have hardware, Bert, or are you now completely software?

[00:07:48.240] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

So, we invested a lot to be completely software. So, the product we have, the EnergyAI product is a pure SaaS play. So, we build our models to be data only, but the interesting fact is that hardware sales has been increased over the years, mainly driven by the introduction of dynamic tariffs, which makes all of a sudden intraday data valuable again. So, we started off building hardware just to collect the data to build our models and there was no real use case for hardware at that moment in time and over the years, this early vision. And that's why coming back to your question, Sandra, whether your original vision still stands over the years, that original vision kind of as a boomerang, came back because nowadays there's a lot of value in collecting real-time data using cost efficient, self-installable hardware for customers that use a dynamic tariff.

[00:09:00.740] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the aggregation business which has been also coming back exactly on what you were saying. Also on hardware, software, data collection points. It's pretty interesting, yeah. Great insights. And what has surprised you most over the last twelve years? Was there anything which is really in your mind where you think like whoa, that was the biggest surprise that we had, or one of the biggest ones.

[00:09:32.280] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

One of the surprises that I did not see coming that much back then was that the models that we built in the cloud, very early on we migrated those models to the edge because processing high granular data in the cloud is extremely expensive. About six years ago we acquired the IP of a company called WATTY in Norway, sorry, in Sweden, and they have worked on sub-second models a lot. And we basically took that IP, brought the IP from the cloud to the edge and we are running these models now on very small memory footprint, limited system on chips. The surprise is that in the US the metering market went from AMI 1.0 to AMI 2.0, and the new metres, like the Itron Viva metre, allows us to run these very tiny models on the edge. Inside the metre. So, these metres are running Linux. Itwon has a platform that allows us to onboard our distributed intelligence edge models on their metres. And without shipping hardware to a customer, we can deploy these models to millions of customers.

[00:11:06.340] - Jon Slowe

So, you've had to be quite nimble but, in the data, you collected, the hardware software balance, we talked about where you do that computation on the data, where that takes place. I guess these things are never straight line, but you've had to find your direction over the last ten years through all of that, haven't you?

[00:11:32.360] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Oh yeah, definitely. And we made many, let's put it this way, wrong, shortcuts. So, we started off being a B2C company where we actually were convinced that we would help consumers to become prosumer and to save energy.

[00:11:54.770] - Jon Slowe

So, trying to build a networked brand directly with customers.

[00:11:59.050] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, absolutely. We had a webshop, we were selling hardware, and we even had a couple of hundred customers. So, that was a mistake.

[00:12:08.770] - Jon Slowe

I won't ask about the cost per sale for each of those customers.

[00:12:13.650] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

So, we quickly made a pivot and we started to sell B2B2C. And that is, that was a much wiser decision. So, we started selling into the energy retail segment, which is not the fastest moving segment in the US. They make the joke that utilities are moving at glacier speeds nowadays glaciers are moving much faster but in wrong direction. But we started off with E.On as our lead customer in Germany and that worked out really well. We have built up a great relation with E.On, a very nice team we are working with. And we've developed a very compelling solution called Smart Control into the German market, which actually makes digital metres smart because they don't have such a wide deployment yet of smart metres. We introduced the same solution in Sweden where through our dongle on the smart metres. So, we have a p one dongle which has Bluetooth and Wifi on board. It's as easy to install as a Google Chromecast. And we allow E.On in Sweden to compete with new entrants like Tibber in that market with a solution that is working on dynamic tariffs, that includes the integration with the car API and that allows E.On to introduce a complete new service into that market.

[00:14:04.400] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

We since then extended to many different energy retailers in different markets like EDF Ng in Echo, and we extend it into different segments as well because we saw that the more our customers, our OEM customers are mature in their digital transformation, the faster we can be successful in deploying our services. You mentioned already the podcast with Radobank. So, banks are a segment that realise that the energy transition is also a transition from Opex to Capex. And they want to finance the Capex and also get a better understanding of what the energy label is, of the assets they have in their mortgage portfolio. Internet Service Providers (ISPs) is another segment. They realise that once you deliver Energy-as-a-Service, you need to manage complex technical devices behind the door, the front door of a customer against a service level agreement. And this is what ISPs do well. So, those companies, those segments we have developed besides energy retail.

[00:15:29.730] - Jon Slowe

So, a lot of different channels then and I mean what stood out to me is you can go almost as fast as how digitally mature your channel partners are. And if I turn that around, you can apply, if your channel partners aren't digitally mature, that's a hindrance in terms of how fast you can go. Has the channel, has the channels been, could you gone faster with more engagement in the channels? I guess in a way that's an obvious question. You could have, but has the channels been something that's held you back overall or when you look back, has it been slower than you thought or are you quite happy with the pace that you've got through the channels?

[00:16:17.170] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

So, we made a decision over time to be very much horizontally positioned. And what I mean with that is that we are staying away from the front-end. So, the EnergyAI is a product which is a pure data in, data out SaaS product. We do deliver a set of APIs-as-a-Service, but that's about as far as we go because we realise that in a deregulated market like we have in Europe, all the energy retailers want to build their own front-end. They want to integrate; they want to differentiate through the front end. We also decided not to go into the, let's say the home energy management segment. So, we are providing real-time metre data to home energy management systems. We also provide forecasting information to home energy management systems so they can make smart switching decisions, but we are not switching ourselves. And that puts us in a very specific partnering mode with companies that are active in this space. What we've noticed though is that this means that if you want to deliver value to energy retailers, it takes time to integrate with all these different systems in an energy retailers company stack.

[00:17:57.080] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

To deliver value to a call centre you need to integrate with Salesforce. To deliver value on the pricing side you need to integrate with SAP, et cetera, et cetera. So, for digital marketing we integrate with SAS and those integrations, they take time. At the same time in Europe, because we have solid and pretty good data protection laws, which are extremely important. It also takes time for energy retailers to collect mandates in order to deliver the services. One of the things I'm quite proud of is that we made it into the US, so we actually contracted our first customers in the US. And in the US, you have a totally different market. Maybe the drivers or the features of our product are the same, but the business case where these features are being used at are completely different. To give you an example, customer satisfaction, for example, in Europe is used to reduce churn, whereas in the US customer satisfaction is used to increase the acceptance rate of the rate case at a regulator, because the lower the amount of customer complaints, the more likely it is to accept rate cases.

[00:19:25.160] - Jon Slowe

The customer is a regulator.

[00:19:28.460] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Almost, almost. But the surprising thing there is that even though the digital transformation is less mature, the fact that these data protection laws are not so prominent in the US, we can at once in one week we have, for example, onboarded a customer with 2 million metres and now on a daily basis we're deriving value from 2 million metres. And the value can be used both on the customer side, but also on the grid side, which is much easier if the market is still regulated.

[00:20:12.400] - Jon Slowe

The beauty is you can use the same platform, the same capability and just apply it slightly differently in the US market or for different use cases or business cases, as you say.

[00:20:22.840] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Absolutely, absolutely. And especially in the US, there's an understanding that customer engagement in the past has been some kind of sanity factor, that people just to apply some green marketing on a brand, on a utility brand, they provide interesting insights. They start realising today that customer engagement is foundational for the grid of the future.

[00:20:52.100] - Sandra Trittin

And congratulations to that step, because what we always see is that there is not the US market, right. It's a huge country with different kind of regulations, different kind of applications, et cetera. So, yeah, I think it's impressive that you took that step, and can you share in which areas you are working?

[00:21:15.880] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, so we have customers in Texas, in Canada, in Michigan, and we recently signed a large energy retailer in the Midwest, active in five different states.

[00:21:30.730] - Sandra Trittin

Wow, congratulations.

[00:21:32.900] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, congratulations. But it's also a lot of work, right, because we are building models, and I can tell you the appliances used in a home in Michigan are a bit different than...

[00:21:44.600] - Sandra Trittin

Quite different, yeah.

[00:21:45.720] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

appliances in a home in Arizona.

[00:21:47.600] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, I know that as well. Yeah. And then also for the operations, I assume it's also a bit of a challenge because you have the time difference, right?

[00:21:56.910] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, but that's where we have standardised the way we operate. So, for data privacy reasons we have made sure that all our customers, all our B2B2C customers are on a private instance of our platform. So, everybody has their own cloud environment, and everything is standardised on AWS. So, it's quite easy for us to deploy locally and we deploy everything from code. So, that's pretty much standardised.

[00:22:31.150] - Jon Slowe

But I want to ask you a bit about AI and you talked about your product, EnergyAI. The cynic me says since AI became really hot topic, companies put AI in their name and their valuation suddenly goes up by a factor of I don't know what. But I think that's a bit harsh for NET2GRID because you've used AI for a long time. So, can you tell us a bit how you. Yeah, how you think about AI, how you use AI in your positioning, how you've developed that over the years?

[00:23:07.570] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, that's a good question, Jon. So, we've been using machine learning models for eight years and we actually started with non-AI models. We actually started with models that were deriving value from real-time data. So, we collected 1 second power data sometimes even if you have a polyphase metre from three different phases, which makes it easier to detect and to fingerprint appliances. And we collected a huge amount of ground truth, I think. Yeah, we always claim we have the largest ground truth dataset in the world, and I've not seen anybody fighting that. So, but this has been extremely important not only to train our models, but also to benchmark the quality of our models. And the models that we have built on real-time data are using a lot of electrical engineering knowledge to train these models on a specific household. So, we take per household about 30 days to collect data and then those models are trained on the specific household, and they're even trained on the specific mode of an appliance. So, if you have a washing machine with five programmes over time we will build five models. Our models extremely accurate because they're customised, and that also allows us to localise our models because we can train for different climate zones, for different appliances.

[00:24:51.200] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Now the output of those models, and we have deployed over 300,000 of these real-time gateways that are collecting continuous data. The output of those models are roughly 90% accurate and they are used as input for our machine learning system. So, for the cloud based EnergyAI solution, which is a true AI solution, and there it is extremely important to know that you can benchmark your models because you need good quality data to train models.

[00:25:29.110] - Jon Slowe

Okay, so it's been part of your, the way you work then for the whole time, for some time. How long would you have? Is that been what you've been doing since founding NET2GRID or when did you start sort of embracing that machine learning from the way you described?

[00:25:49.430] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

That's what we've been doing since 2016. So, for the last eight years. So, when we started NET2GRID, we collected real-time data, and we focused really on the data collection and making the real-time data visible, and we focused on energy management. So, home energy management, switching in real time. Since 2016, we started to use the data that we collected and also the ground truth data to build the real-time models. That's also why we started in Thessaloniki in Greece. We had a very good partnership with the Aristoteles University who has an electrical engineering department with a PhD specialisation in data science. And that's why we are based here, and we have a lot of their PhD students that onboarded NET2GRID and that are now our lead data scientists.

[00:26:55.040] - Jon Slowe

Okay.

[00:26:56.470] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

And then after that period when we had a large enough base to start training machine learning models, we started to build EnergyAI, which is a product that runs in the cloud and can work on transactional metre data. So, 15 minutes load curves, 60 minutes load curves, standalone, without any additional data.

[00:27:20.570] - Jon Slowe

Sandra mentioned at the beginning, about the energy and persistence that you need to keep driving something forward and to turn that flywheel bit-by-bit, you've clearly got that energy and persistence, the way you talk and the way you've driven the company forward and entered the US market. Yeah, you must be proud of that.

[00:27:43.690] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

I'm extremely proud of that, but I keep it going because I collect myself, I collect a lot of young people around myself. I'm here in Greece today and I remember we had an event, a company event, two years ago. We were climbing Mount Olympus with a large team and when we were climbing, we were with like 25 people and we were climbing up. I was the only one from the Dutch office and I was chatting with some people and then I realised that, that the oldest guy on the team was 20 years younger than I was. That helps. But it's also the passion about doing something with purpose, to work on a subject that is to me of very high importance and to find myself amongst colleagues that are in different domains, that are in marketing, that are in sales, that are in engineering, that are driven by the same purpose, that is also very much energising.

[00:28:58.930] - Sandra Trittin

And how would you see it out of the experience that you had now over the last twelve years, also being an entrepreneur, running the company, having this continuous flow, let's say, of young people also joining, what would you think are the most important elements that you take from that experience from the last twelve years that you are taking also forward to the years ahead of the company?

[00:29:28.110] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, it's the feeling like never give up, never give in. I think in any start-up scale-up you will have setbacks, you will have, you know, things will not all go according to plan, but yeah, stick to your core belief, stick to your vision, and be as flexible as possible.

[00:30:02.200] - Sandra Trittin

Great.

[00:30:03.880] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

At the same time.

[00:30:05.140] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, all at the same, right.

[00:30:11.560] - Jon Slowe

Well, let's bring out the Talking New energy Crystal ball. And we've looked mainly backwards at what you've achieved so far Bert, so a nice chance to look forward. I've set the dial this week to 2030 and like you to imagine having this conversation in 2030 and reflecting back on the last six years. So, we're in 2030. You're looking back at the last six years. Can you describe two or three of the biggest changes in energy insights or your sector or your company, however you want to frame it, that we've had in the six years before 2030?

[00:30:52.940] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, if you look backwards and forwards, we have made renewables cost efficient as an industry, but all these cost-efficient renewables are generating only electricity. And if you look at the growth of renewables over the next 30 years, they will generate 60% of our energy consumption. And if you look at the consumption of the energy mix of consumers that went over the last 30 years from 18% to 21%. So, we have a big engagement challenge ahead of us. But if I move myself six years ahead, 2030, if I look at the uptake of EV's, the uptake of solar batteries, I think we will have a lot of home batteries because home batteries, the grid is filling up. A lot of consumers who invested in solar see their inverters switched off at the middle of the day. And without batteries, you can't prevent that. I believe there will be a huge uptake of distributed energy resources and of consumers using flexible energy tariffs, automating the way they consume energy. And the whole concept of maybe twelve years ago helping consumers to save energy consumption has been shift completely to helping consumers to use energy in a different way without losing convenience and simply being smarter about it, but making sure that everything is automated and managed by service companies against a Service Level Agreement because it are only the energy geeks amongst us who like to switch on and off their electric vehicles during the day when the prices are low.

[00:33:21.980] - Jon Slowe

And even some of us can't be bothered to do that as well. And all of that needs to be underpinned, as you said earlier, but by a certain level of engagement with customers, with households.

[00:33:39.250] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, on one side I would say engagement, but on the other side also, what you mentioned, Bert, is the convenience, right. Say, taking the example of the electric car or also of the washing machine. For sure, it's great to be able to save energy if you wash during the day or something, but sometimes you're just happy to be able to wash whenever it's possible if an automatic system takes that for you, right. It's perfect. And I think you have the perfect setup for that.

[00:34:10.700] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Yeah. And it's interesting to look at it as a global problem, right? Because the market dynamics in the US, and we're looking now at the Japanese market, those market dynamics are completely different. We've been serving Australia for, for four years now through our partner in Telehub. And the market dynamics there, it feels like they're kind of ahead of Europe.

[00:34:39.690] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah, I think they have a bit of more pressing needs to solve their issues, right. Because they feel the blackouts immediately, whereas here we have the fear of blackouts, but luckily, they are not happening as often

[00:34:57.280] - Jon Slowe

Yet.

[00:34:59.760] - Sandra Trittin

Oh, come on.

[00:35:02.480] - Jon Slowe

Well, on that too far too pessimistic note, but thanks so much for your time and congratulations on everything you've achieved and your persistence and the scale-up that you've driven and, yeah, good luck over the next years in keeping that going.

[00:35:22.020] - Bert Lutje Berenbroek

Thanks, Jon and Sandra

[00:35:22.660] - Sandra Trittin

So, Jon, what is your takeaway? Like, what do you think? What keeps turning in your mind? After our session with Bert now

[00:35:36.460] - Jon Slowe

I think two things. I mean, there's the obvious one of the times and the persistence to get that flywheel turning.

[00:35:44.100] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah.

[00:35:46.260] - Jon Slowe

And I think the other thing in my mind is the concept of using data, analysing data, machine learning or data to better understand how customers using energy, and then the actions, or the actions and opportunities that flow from that. That sounds simple, but the way Bert described the different ways in which that's being done and how that's changed over the years and how NET2GRID has had to adapt the way they work around that from moving to the cloud and then the opportunity to embed things in metres in the US, it's an ever-changing area. So, you don't solve it once, you have to solve it and then keep solving it

[00:36:35.630] - Sandra Trittin

Continuously.

[00:36:36.540] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. So those are. Yeah, that's, I think two of the things in my mind. How about you?

[00:36:43.370] - Sandra Trittin

So, the first thing that resonated immediately with me was all of this data capturing how to get the data to also keep the cost low, etcetera. Because as you know, Jon, my background is in telecommunication. So, when I kicked off the first start-up in 2012, this was actually exactly the same questions we had, right? Like how do you gather data per second, how do you keep the cost low, how do you have the resilience also in your data flow, et cetera. So, it's great to see that people also found their path and also this manoeuvring between using hardware, moving to the cloud, moving to the edge. I think it's an important question and also to keep there always the openness and also being flexible for different applications in different kind of markets.

[00:37:39.650] - Jon Slowe

Yeah. Not being too dogmatic, I guess. Definitely.

[00:37:42.150] - Sandra Trittin

Exactly. Because also, especially on this data transmitting, data processing piece, I think there will be continuous changes happening as well. Mobile networks frequencies are disappearing, right? There is no 2G anymore. All of that brings also new challenges. So, it's great to have companies in the market who are able to deal with that as well. So, this is one thing, but just out of my personal interest, that resonated really well. And then it's also the same as I said, Bert, is the persistence to keep on going, because also there, I think, consumer insights into their data, giving them options on how to change behaviour, how to change certain kind of setups in your home is really important, especially now that we see the energy prices continuously rising. So, it's a huge enabler on the consumer side, I think, to save energy.

[00:38:45.380] - Sandra Trittin

For sure. It's a key part of a successful transition.

[00:38:48.700] - Sandra Trittin

Yeah. And then moving it to the right point in time.

[00:38:54.680] - Jon Slowe

Well, we better keep in our time, we better leave it there for today. But yeah, I hope everyone listening enjoyed the episode and has learnt some new things, heard some new perspectives, and taken that back to your day jobs in the energy transition. Thanks everyone for listening and look forward to welcoming you back next week. Bye bye.

[00:39:16.290] - Sandra Trittin

Thank you very much. Bye. Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transitions. If you've got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know.

[00:39:32.060] - Jon Slowe

And if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts and more, please visit lcpdelta.com.